"Completed scripts" section

"Completed scripts" section

Postby Ofnuts » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:30 pm

Is it me or is it mostly a treasure chest of how not to code things? Shouldn't that forum be heavily moderated? What is its actual purpose, given that people who produce really useful code will most likely put in on GitHub or some such?
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby micseydel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:45 pm

I would guess your post was inspired by this.

You make a very good point. I've added the text "Note: posts here are not necessarily endorsed by the community, and may represent amateur or even bad practices." since such a change should be very uncontroversial in the short-term.

I would say the purpose is to give amateurs a place and opportunity to share their efforts. Sometimes we get really bad stuff, like what is linked above, and sometimes we get things that people really tried their best with and it's reasonable code for their skill level. These people probably aren't proficient with version control, or else, you're right that they'd be using Github or something instead.

As far as changes go, did you have something specific in mind about moderation? I was pretty harsh with the post above, but perhaps you mean that we should do at least enough (polite) code review to prevent people from mistakenly thinking the code is good? Or something else?
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby Ofnuts » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:24 pm

That one was only the last drop in a very full bucket, and the immodesty of the post made it look even bigger...

I'm afraid that no-one will ever have time for polite code reviews... Doing (Java) code reviews has been a good part of my job (for "professional" offshore programmers, who sometimes are hardly better...) and I know how time-consuming it is (especially of you want to remain polite :)). The aforementioned post has so many issues it would take several hours to comment/fix (with likely some back and forth discussion). But it is possible that people post there to see of their code passes muster. If no-one objects then the poster feels entitled as "official Python programmer".

On the other hand, your additional warning in the forum header is a very polite way to say "please deposit your cr*p here", so it may make people think about the quality of their own code before they post... and in effect quench most posting to it... Time will tell.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby micseydel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:55 pm

You make a lot of good points. Especially the one about code reviewing professionals....

So what intervention are you suggesting exactly? Nix the subforum, create a post to better explain what it's for, create a subforum within it (like in Tutorials), or some other option?
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby Ofnuts » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:29 am

Killing it is the easy solution.

Or we show some mercy, remove the more embarrassing posts, and put it under heavy moderation, the author only seeing a yay/nay answer (at least officially) so we don't need write a full code review.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby micseydel » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:24 am

If killing it is considered, I assume that we would lock the subforum to prevent losing the posts and add a warning at the top of the page (I think that can be done via the admin panel).

Do we really want to remove posts? What I'd prefer is a "pending code review" section (like the tutorial submissions section) with a note explicitly saying that it may (would probably?) remain there forever, and only be moved if it got good feedback. What are your thoughts? And others?

Also, while I'm here: Ofnuts is a moderator now. There's an invisible moderator subforum, so I just want to be extra explicit that non-mods are entirely welcome to comment on this.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby ichabod801 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:00 pm

I understand the issues, but I don't see a solution that's going to work for this forum. A pending sub-forum until you get a good review is a nice idea, but who here has time to do the reviews? We're already asking people with questions to post the shortest snippet of code they can, because we don't have time to wade through huge programs. We could post a guideline on posting completed programs, but we get plenty of people who don't bother to read the guidelines on asking questions, so I don't see that actually having an effect. My only idea would be to do the sub-forum in reverse: if someone gives it a bad review, it goes into the "how not to code" sub-forum. However, I'm not sure we could implement that effectively, and it seems kind of rude.

I have posted some stuff in Completed Scripts. I don't know version control, because I've always programmed solo and started programming before there was version control. On the other hand, my plan with my latest big back burner project is learn GitHub and post it there when it's done.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby sparkz_alot » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:36 pm

I'll start by saying that for me, Python is a hobby and I'm am certainly not in the same league as many of you folks. At best, I am probably a pre-entry level programmer :lol: , so my criteria, when looking at these scripts are very basic. In fact I only have two:
1) Is it pertinent to me
2) Does it work

I might add a third one: can I follow what's going on. I'll be honest, some of the solutions you pro's come up with are quite amazing but often leave me sitting in my chair, mumbling and drooling out the corner of my mouth when it comes to 'understanding' how you did that. :o .

Is it possible to have 3 sub forums- beginners, intermediate and pro? Let the poster decide which area his/her code should fall and then be prepared for whatever comments are made, be they good or bad. I would be more inclined to 'review' code from a beginner than I would be from a pro. I would also expect comments would be more lenient for beginners and a whole lot harsher for a pro.

So that's my two cents.

Keep up the great work!
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby micseydel » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:27 pm

ichabod801 wrote:who here has time to do the reviews?

I thought a disclaimer of "your code may never be reviewed" might be enough. And we might get batches of people, very intermittently, doing code review and then we could keep and eye on that.

ichabod801 wrote:We're already asking people with questions to post the shortest snippet of code they can, because we don't have time to wade through huge programs.

While that's half the reason, I'd argue that it's something that they should be doing on the path to solving their own problems anyway. When I first joined this forum (2005), I was much worse at asking questions than I was after someone set me straight (KDoiron? I can't remember now). But you are right, people should also be respectful of our time.

ichabod801 wrote:We could post a guideline on posting completed programs, but we get plenty of people who don't bother to read the guidelines on asking questions, so I don't see that actually having an effect.

For what I had in mind, it was more of a thing to link to when people complain :roll:

ichabod801 wrote:My only idea would be to do the sub-forum in reverse: if someone gives it a bad review, it goes into the "how not to code" sub-forum. However, I'm not sure we could implement that effectively, and it seems kind of rude.

Interesting idea, but I agree that the rudeness thing is an issue here.

ichabod801 wrote:I have posted some stuff in Completed Scripts. I don't know version control, because I've always programmed solo and started programming before there was version control. On the other hand, my plan with my latest big back burner project is learn GitHub and post it there when it's done.

I highly recommend you learn Git before it's "done" :)
If you just use Github once it's complete, it's not that much different from posting on here, the advantage of version control is that during development you save state as move along and people can also see the steps to the final product. It took a while after initially learning Git, but now for anything more than one file (and sometimes even for just one file) I start a Git repo right away.

sparkz_alot wrote:Is it possible to have 3 sub forums- beginners, intermediate and pro? Let the poster decide which area his/her code should fall and then be prepared for whatever comments are made, be they good or bad. I would be more inclined to 'review' code from a beginner than I would be from a pro. I would also expect comments would be more lenient for beginners and a whole lot harsher for a pro.

It is possible, and I actually like this idea, and we can just reserve the right to move posts if we really want to. I believe we can even still have a "pending" section within each of those if we wanted.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby Ofnuts » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:04 pm

micseydel wrote:It is possible, and I actually like this idea, and we can just reserve the right to move posts if we really want to. I believe we can even still have a "pending" section within each of those if we wanted.


Simplified: two forums: "Good Stuff" and "Bad Stuff" (possibly under more diplomatic names). People can only post to "Bad Stuff". Only mods can move things to "Good Stuff".
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby sparkz_alot » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:07 pm

Simplified: two forums: "Good Stuff" and "Bad Stuff" (possibly under more diplomatic names). People can only post to "Bad Stuff". Only mods can move things to "Good Stuff".


Isn't this the same as the Tutorial section? I can see the benefit of such a system for tutorials, after all, you don't want the site to become known as the sight that promotes teaching bad code, styles, etc. so more scrutiny is required by the mods and admins. With scripts, however, I think the focus is on the author and not the site. Say, for instance, I as a 'noob' write a script that uses half a dozen 'def' functions and the code works as expected, I would consider it as 'Good' code, even though it might be better written using 'classes' or such. Also, like the Tutorial section, would this not require the mods and admins to review ALL submissions? I thought you are trying to relieve yourselves of that burden.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby ichabod801 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:06 pm

How about this:

  • Two forums: Code Submissions and Nominated Code.
  • Everything goes in Code Submissions initially.
  • Regulars can nominate code to be moved to the Nominated Code forum.
    • This is totally a volunteer, community service thing to review and nominate code.
    • We make it clear in Code Submissions that nominating is volunteer, and you might never get nominated.
    • "Regulars" is defined as something like people with 100 posts, to keep people making two accounts to nominate their own code.
  • We put some guidelines in Code Submissions as to what we think is good code worthy of nomination.
Then the mods just have to skim the replies in Code Submissions for posts nominating the code. The old forum could become Code Submissions, and people could go back and nominate old posts.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby micseydel » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:00 am

sparkz_alot wrote:like the Tutorial section, would this not require the mods and admins to review ALL submissions? I thought you are trying to relieve yourselves of that burden.

Much like what ichabod801 has said, the Code Submissions section would probably have a lot of ignored posts, much like tutorial submissions. I've been meaning to create a sticky post in the tutorials section to be really explicit that submitters should be prepared to really lobby for their submission if they want it to be approved (sometimes we ignore, sometimes they don't reply to feedback). The mod / administrative load isn't too bad (30 seconds?), it's really the community effort to say yay / nay, to again confirm ichabod801's comment there.

On a somewhat amusing note, if amateurs who are concerned about saying the wrong thing start being more liberal in taking that risk, people with more experience and less initiative will become more likely to speak up when they see someone asserting something wrong. Asking a question isn't as provocative as being wrong, but someone being wrong is when duty calls. No one is going to ban (or hopefully not flame) anyone for being humble when saying the wrong thing, so no one should be too concerned about that, since you have to start somewhere!

@ichabod801: I think that's a good way of looking at it, I'm curious how that sounds to Ofnuts. I don't think anyone would go back and nominate stuff, especially if the posters don't lobby for reviews. I was actually thinking about locking that subforum so that we could "start fresh" in a sense; I thought keeping unreviewed code closer to 0 might encourage it being kept up with.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby Ofnuts » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:39 am

micseydel wrote:@ichabod801: I think that's a good way of looking at it, I'm curious how that sounds to Ofnuts. I don't think anyone would go back and nominate stuff, especially if the posters don't lobby for reviews. I was actually thinking about locking that subforum so that we could "start fresh" in a sense; I thought keeping unreviewed code closer to 0 might encourage it being kept up with.


OK with me. But if you want to "keep unreviewed code closer to 0" submissions that don't become nominated will have to be axed (which can be done every two/three months).
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby metulburr » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:28 pm

i kind of have a different view. I must admit i just scanned everyones post, and not read in detail here. So excuse me if i dont understand what is exactly going on :oops:

When i first started the completed scripts section was my github. It was a place where i could upload my programs when i didnt know git. When i started posting numerous code sections for each file is when i actually knew i had to learn version control. I remember putting code there and wondering why poeple did not respond. I assumed it was because it was bad....and it was. But that made me want to make even better code/programs so people would respond. But by that point i switched to github/bitbucket. But what if my code was axed before then? I would of assumed no one cared. I might of even stopped trying. Who knows. So I wouldnt vote for axing the content of completed scripts. What does that say to all the people who put code there? Especially the most recent ones as well as the good ones?

I dont think we should restrict them to a completed scripts submission section. The only reason we have it in tutorials is because we want people to view specific tutorials as opposed to junk ones. Which might slightly reduce repetitive posts asking the same questions. The completed scripts section the only place where they can have some freedom and "show their work". We dont have it there because the next Minecraft game or Operating system will show up there, but because its an ego boost for the noob.

I could understand removing or editing out malicious code though. O making a notice that code may or may not be malicious, run at your own risk, etc. kind of thing.
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby Ofnuts » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:42 pm

Then let's call it "Show-off"... "Completed Scripts" may make people think the code is usable...

But I still think that for many it causes rather misguided ego boosts, when their egos aren't already pretty much boosted...
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Re: "Completed scripts" section

Postby Mekire » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:06 pm

I agree that we have always gotten a lot of sub-par code in there, but honestly it never really bothered me as I kinda think that is what the section is for. I don't mind the idea of "Code Submissions and Nominated Code" though I'm not entirely convinced it is necessary.

The comparison with tutorials is interesting. 90% of submissions to tutorials are people just posting a link to their own page rather than writing a tutorial. We already have a useful python links thread dedicated to such things so by definition those really don't fit and will never be confirmed (though they may be added to the useful links thread). I can't honestly remember the last time a poster (who wasn't a solid regular here) submitted a real tutorial that wasn't just a link (often bordering on blogspam).
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