Is Python Dead?

Is Python Dead?

Postby dietrich41 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:44 pm

In the last 2 years I have noticed an alarming drop in the interest in the Python language. Is this Python itself, or computer programming in general?
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby micseydel » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:14 pm

I have noticed neither of those things. But then, for the last two years I've lived in the silicon valley bubble.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby ichabod801 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:45 pm

Betteridge's Law.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby metulburr » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:32 am

I have heard quite the opposite. More and more people around me tend to know and tinker with python than before.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby dietrich41 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:36 am

Python3 has certainly removed some warts from the Python language, but has also crippled wxPython, one of the popular GUI toolkits. Yes I know that there are very limited efforts on the way to bring it back. Well, another GUI toolkit called PyQt to the rescue, but now we have the rough change from PyQt4 to PyQt5. Somewhat frustrating!

Am I bitching? Yes!
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby Ofnuts » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:38 pm

dietrich41 wrote:In the last 2 years I have noticed an alarming drop in the interest in the Python language. Is this Python itself, or computer programming in general?


Hardly: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/ ... index.html
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby Ofnuts » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:41 pm

dietrich41 wrote:Python3 has certainly removed some warts from the Python language, but has also crippled wxPython, one of the popular GUI toolkits. Yes I know that there are very limited efforts on the way to bring it back. Well, another GUI toolkit called PyQt to the rescue, but now we have the rough change from PyQt4 to PyQt5. Somewhat frustrating!

Am I bitching? Yes!


Python v3 has been around for a years (since December 2008)... the problem is that wxPython hasn't moved forward, unlike all other Python interfaces. You bet on the wrong horse, so you can be bitter, but don't complain about the racetrack, it was the same for everybody.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby metulburr » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:22 pm

but has also crippled wxPython, one of the popular GUI toolkits. Well, another GUI toolkit called PyQt to the rescue, but now we have the rough change from PyQt4 to PyQt5.


You could say the same for almost every language and 3rd party libraries used for those languages. Some libraries halt permanently, some for a long time, some quickly, some too quickly. All programmers have to get adjusted when a library gets updated( or when it doesnt). Its just the nature of programming. The only easy thing is being the user on the other end. You just install and/or run it.

But to specifically point your finger at python is foolish.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby pydsigner » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:12 pm

I think that Python 3 has done more harm than good, both to the community and to the language. But then I'm an anti-Java bare-thread-loving Python 2 troglodyte.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby micseydel » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:39 pm

That's an interesting comment. Could you elaborate on it further?

I agree somewhat up to this point, but I'm hoping type hinting might make the difference. I feel like it can really help with long-term projects that are maintained by large teams who've been reluctant to pick up Python before.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby Mekire » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:53 pm

pydsigner wrote:I think that Python 3 has done more harm than good, both to the community and to the language.
I agree that the fractured community has done a ton of harm to Python in the past years. I think the idea that py3 has done actual harm to the language a pretty laughable argument though; laughable because you can write nearly identical code in py3 if you really desire.

I would like nothing more than to be able to only work with py3 and completely remove py2 from all my machines. I'm tired of having to write mutually compatible code because some people still won't (or can't) move on.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby pydsigner » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:26 am

Mekire wrote: I think the idea that py3 has done actual harm to the language a pretty laughable argument though; laughable because you can write nearly identical code in py3 if you really desire.

I would like nothing more than to be able to only work with py3 and completely remove py2 from all my machines. I'm tired of having to write mutually compatible code because some people still won't (or can't) move on.


You're right, most of the additions to Python 3 can be ignored in a practical sense. But I don't like what they tell me about the direction of the language. print()? Beautiful. yield from? Has its uses. More iterators? Great. But don't start stuffing the characteristics of Java into a good language.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby micseydel » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:29 am

pydsigner wrote:But don't start stuffing the characteristics of Java into a good language.

Could you be more specific?
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby pydsigner » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:33 am

micseydel wrote:
pydsigner wrote:But don't start stuffing the characteristics of Java into a good language.

Could you be more specific?


Deprecating direct use for thread for threading.py is the main thing that comes to mind, but the asyncio/twisted push and type-hinting PEP also represent the sort of feel I get from the Python-ideas mailing list.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby pydsigner » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:09 am

micseydel wrote:That's an interesting comment. Could you elaborate on it further?

I agree somewhat up to this point, but I'm hoping type hinting might make the difference. I feel like it can really help with long-term projects that are maintained by large teams who've been reluctant to pick up Python before.


I missed this comment, sorry. You're somewhat making my point though — there's a very concerted effort to make Python appealing to enterprise groups who might be more likely to go with Java, but "enterprise Java" isn't the code style that should be encouraged.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby micseydel » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:13 am

What exactly do you have against Java? It's used in enterprise because it's relatively idiot-proof. Python can adopt the good parts (static typing, optionally) without the terrible parts (the worst OOP model I've ever seen).
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby pydsigner » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:36 am

micseydel wrote:What exactly do you have against Java? It's used in enterprise because it's relatively idiot-proof. Python can adopt the good parts (static typing, optionally) without the terrible parts (the worst OOP model I've ever seen).


I don't want an idiot-proof language, because idiot-proof languages always sacrifice something else for that quality. I think Paul Graham did a good article on the subject: http://paulgraham.com/javacover.html (Yes, old, but I think that history has proved his doubts)
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby micseydel » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:54 am

pydsigner wrote:I think Paul Graham did a good article on the subject: http://paulgraham.com/javacover.html (Yes, old, but I think that history has proved his doubts)

Paul Graham (2001) wrote:[...] I've never written a Java program, [...] but I have a hunch that it won't be a very successful language. I may turn out to be mistaken; making predictions about technology is a dangerous business. But for what it's worth, as a sort of time capsule, here's why I don't like the look of Java:

1. [...] No one had to promote C, or Unix, or HTML. [...] Perl is as big as Java, or bigger, just on the strength of its own merits.

In spite of that link being pretty short, I stopped after this section. It starts with prejudice, makes a comment which has been disproven by time, and then speaks positively of Perl. I'd like to know your thoughts here. Feel free to quote the the document, but I don't want to take the whole thing in as-is.

pydsigner wrote:I don't want an idiot-proof language, because idiot-proof languages always sacrifice something else for that quality.

What I mean to say is, in programming, laziness is a virtue and if you require too much of the programmer(s) it ends up costing you in the long run. I'm not saying Java is a good compromise on the situation, nor do I believe that. I think Python is one of the best compromises out there but also has room for improvement. I think type hinting is a fantastic idea, a compromise between static typing and clean code, for example.

That said, I'm still curious what your thoughts are. What specifically do you think Python 3 adopted from Java which is bad? I'll probably agree with you, but I do want to know what you think.
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby pydsigner » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:49 am

micseydel wrote:I'd like to know your thoughts here. Feel free to quote the the document, but I don't want to take the whole thing in as-is.


Paul Graham (2001) wrote:It's designed for large organizations. Large organizations have different aims from hackers. They want languages that are (believed to be) suitable for use by large teams of mediocre programmers-- languages with features that, like the speed limiters in U-Haul trucks, prevent fools from doing too much damage. Hackers don't like a language that talks down to them. Hackers just want power. Historically, languages designed for large organizations (PL/I, Ada) have lost, while hacker languages (C, Perl) have won. The reason: today's teenage hacker is tomorrow's CTO.


micseydel wrote:I think type hinting is a fantastic idea, a compromise between static typing and clean code, for example.


(Tangent) I think that type hinting makes most sense as a means for performance optimization/ease of binding to static languages.

micseydel wrote:That said, I'm still curious what your thoughts are. What specifically do you think Python 3 adopted from Java which is bad? I'll probably agree with you, but I do want to know what you think.


I'll mention again here the anointing of threading.py by renaming thread to _thread. Additionally the Python-ideas mailing list is filled with people asking for things like "else if:" support. I'd mention logging.py as well but that's much older than Python 3....
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Re: Is Python Dead?

Postby micseydel » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:16 am

pydsigner wrote:I think that type hinting makes most sense as a means for performance optimization/ease of binding to static languages.

PEP 484 has declared the former a non-goal. Projects like Pypy have done quite well without such things, to my personal surprise. As far as language bindings, that seems reasonable, though I haven't heard about that before. It seems that Python usually leverages other languages when speed/low level/existing code is needed, and not as much the other direction.

pydsigner wrote:I'll mention again here the anointing of threading.py by renaming thread to _thread. Additionally the Python-ideas mailing list is filled with people asking for things like "else if:" support. I'd mention logging.py as well but that's much older than Python 3....

I haven't worked with threading directly myself, so I don't have any comments on that. Same for logging.py. You're welcome to elaborate (especially on the Java connection) if you wish.

The "else if" thing seems silly. I certainly prefer the "one way to do something" approach so while I'm ambivalent about which way it would be, it doesn't seem worth adding/changing now. That said, I wouldn't consider that a bad trait of Java that Python is taking in. If Python started requiring a main() method of a class as the only means of writing Hello World then I'd get upset, or if a poor type system (I'm not a fan of Java's) was introduced that limited Python code (type hinting doesn't do this, even if today the type system isn't very sophisticated).
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